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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/07/2004 : 08:18:40 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist, I think verlch is trying to use a debating technique known as the Gish Gallop. That is, throw out as many questions and statements as possible in as short of time as possible, giving the oponent no time to give a considered answer. Kent Hovind is especally good at this. Verlch fails to realize that it won't work in a written format (Hovind figured that out long ago -- just try to get him in a chat room).
If verlch will select just one of his assertions and back it up with something other than incredulous rubbish, I will cease thinking of him as the only survivor of Jonestown.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2004 : 08:55:51 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
What's that all about? Because I don't believe in your fantasy I am a know-it-all bigot?
No, I told you why I consider you to be a know-it-all bigot: because you refuse to support your claims with evidence, and you refuse to examine the evidence presented to you. There are plenty of other people who also don't "believe in" evolution, but who will both share their sources for their claims, and look at evidence counter to them, and even change their minds about their own claims. They are not know-it-all bigots.
Look at Answers In Genesis, for example. They've got a list of arguments that they think creationists shouldn't use because they make creationists look like idiots. They're open-minded enough to realize that lies and bigotry don't help the creationist cause. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2004 : 09:37:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
If verlch will select just one of his assertions and back it up with something other than incredulous rubbish, I will cease thinking of him as the only survivor of Jonestown.
This was more or less my point (though I was trying to be slightly less antagonistic in the hopes that this micht actually work). The idea is that if we can limit the discussion to one or two points then we can really have the time to investigate all the evidence and arrive at some definite conclusions-- even if those conclusions are that the evidence for or against a specific point is not particularly compelling.
In theory, with enough discussion both sides should be able to come to a conclusion. That is, of course, unlikely. Nevertheless, I remain (for now) positive that something good might happen. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2004 : 15:19:26 [Permalink]
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| So Dave, how's the "Guide to Arguing With Idiots" coming along? I should think you've got enough material for a couple chapters right here in this thread! |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2004 : 20:40:41 [Permalink]
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Ricky wrote:quote:
The proposal is not silly at all, in fact, I really like it. But you must think why is verlch doing this is so that he can suggest one thing, and jumping to another not arguing our arguments about the first statment. This way he never has to admit to being wrong or submitting evidence.
Absolutely. Cuneiformist's idea is a great way to go about things, if the other party (or parties) is willing to play by the typical rules of debate. verlch has demonstrated he'd rather play by the rules of political campaigning, in which stating a claim is enough to make it true, and the words of one's opponents are twisted into evil caricatures of their obvious meaning. This has been demonstrated, by the way, since his first post here, and even more so since this thread. He apparently thought his OP here would be "fugly" for evolutionists (and feminists?), but the only things fugly about it are its lack of sound logic and valid premises - problems he refuses to even address, much less correct.
R.Wreck wrote:quote:
So Dave, how's the "Guide to Arguing With Idiots" coming along? I should think you've got enough material for a couple chapters right here in this thread!
Yes and no. One of our desires is for humor, and this thread would be funny if it weren't so sad. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 12:05:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I understand that the above proposal might sound silly, but it seems to me that it would be at least slightly less silly than the current "What about this? Well that's nothing-- what about that?" bit. Or perhaps not...
It's not silly at all. However, verlch has chosen not to play by those simple rules. A pity really, because if he got his act together he could be a really cool guy. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 12:18:28 [Permalink]
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Verlch: You've started ranting again.
I don't live in an English speaking country, I learnt English as a second language. This fact puts me at a disadvantage.
If your sentences aren't properly formatted, I'll have serious problems, and a long time decoding them.
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Dave_W wrote quote:
You are, in other words, a know-it-all bigot, and not a proper Christian at all.
What's that all about? Because I don't believe in your fantasy I am a know-it-all bigot? Shall we burn me at the stake boys for not believing that the earth is flat?
No, quite the opposite. Your clergy wants to burn us (skeptics and scientists) for believing in Evolution. It was Christian leaders that decided that Earth was the center of the universe, and even burned a man at the stake for suggesting that there may be planets with life orbiting other stars.
quote:
I like how you spend minutes mocking me about how much water it would take to fill up the earth. The earth is 70 % water right now!!!
You seemed to have skipped your basic geography lessons, and geology and math for that matter.
More than 99% of the earth is molten rock, not 70% water. On the other hand maybe 70% of the earth's SURFACE is COVERED with water. Get your facts straight, and your medication at least an hour before posting. Your arguments are only scratching the surface of the Real Universe.
While we are at it, what's with the "musturd[sic]" seed? You keep ranting about mustard seeds as if it was some extraordinary proof of something supernatural. Please explain the significance of the mustard seed.
(Edit: spelling/grammar) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/08/2004 17:25:34 |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 14:08:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
So Dave, how's the "Guide to Arguing With Idiots" coming along? I should think you've got enough material for a couple chapters right here in this thread!
What is the deal with you guys? Whats with the mud slinging? Speaking of mud, where did that evolve from? Without all the bugs in the ground the soil would not work right. So what came first the bug or the soil? You would need the soil because the plants couldn't grow without it. But then without the bugs the plants couldn't grow. How would they evolve at the same time with out oxygen. How did oxygen come into being if there wasn't any vegitation?
Speaking back to the flood story, look the earth is 70% water right now. (were did water come from?)(I suppose it just came into being magically and without cause) How is it unfeasible that God couldn't have made it rain that much and then leave the water in the ocean. The have found wood high on Mt. Ararat, along with satillite images of a ship buried in the snow! I suppose that when Noahs Ark is found you will dismiss it as a fairy tale. God says the 'rainbow' was put in the sky as a symboy between man and God that He would never again destroy the earth with water. I'm sure you guys know the scientific formula and explation as to why rainbows exist.
Noah's Ark Found? Turkey Expedition Planned for Summer
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0427_040427_noahsark.html
Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News
April 27, 2004
Satellite pictures taken last summer of Mount Ararat in Turkey may reveal the final resting place of Noah's ark, according to Daniel McGivern, the businessman and Christian activist behind a planned summer 2004 expedition to investigate the site.
"We're telling people we're 98 percent sure," said McGivern, a member of the Hawaii Christian Coalition. "In one image we saw the beams, saw the wood. I'm convinced that the excavation of the object and the results of tests run on any collected samples will prove that it is Noah's ark. "
http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/HasNoahsArkBeenFound1.html
The bible says when we sinned we 'knew' that we were naked. And we clothed ourselves, and we still cloth ourselves in this time and Era of extreme Darwinism. I'm sure you can explain that away. The fact that God made us the best creatures on the planet, and the fact we are still the only clothed creatures on the planet, supports the biblical story. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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| Edited by - verlch on 05/08/2004 14:13:05 |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 14:17:29 [Permalink]
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]
I like how you spend minutes mocking me about how much water it would take to fill up the earth. The earth is 70 % water right now!!!
[/quote]You seemed to have skipped your basic geography lessons, and geology and math for that matter.
More than 99% of the earth is molten rock, not 70% water. On the other hand maybe 70% of the earth's SURFACE is COVERED with water. Get your facts straight, and your medication at least an hour before posting. Your arguments are only scratching the surface of the Real Universe.
While we are at is, what's with the "musturd[sic]" seed? You keep ranting about mustard seeds as if it was some extraordinary proof of something supernatural. Please explain the significance of the mustard seed.
[/quote]
Your not the first to mock my spelling. How about I email my posts to you, you run spell check or you just simply put spell check on this program. Ok Dr. Spelling Bee...
The mustard seed is something scientists cannot duplicate how it goes from seed to life. How it goes from seed to living plant A simple mustard seed stumps the most learned men of this world.
Don't you have some patients to prescribe meds to Dr. How about we call you Dr. Med. Only because of your marriage to the drug makers. Human veins flow with meds from your pen Doc. Assuming of course you are a Dr. I'm guessing you aren't. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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| Edited by - verlch on 05/08/2004 14:21:07 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 14:50:43 [Permalink]
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The second article, tentmaker.org is one I hadn't seen, but it's covering old ground.
There have been many expeditions in search of the Ark. Some were serious, others were a scam. Thus far, nothing even resembling such a vessel has been discovered. The current attempt, due to start in July, is setting off with great, and IMO unwarrented, confidence.
I've looked at the sattelite photos in question and see nothing that be the outline of a giant, wooden barge. But, I'm not an expert.
I've read that the north face of Ararat is no walk in the park. It is a stiff challenge for even an experienced mountaineer. Thus, I am wondering about the scientific qualifactions of the team. Archeologists are not known for mountain climbing, although I'm sure some of them, possibly many of them, do.
There is really little to be done or said until the expedition's return. While I rather doubt that it will have found anything like the Ark, I'm willing to wait and see.
What would comprise proof to me? Well, a piece of pitch-coated gohper wood, whatever that tree might be, radiocarbon dated to the era might be a start.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 18:54:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
So what came first the bug or the soil?
Bugs did.
quote:
How did oxygen come into being if there wasn't any vegitation?
Before the atmosphere became oxygenated, and before vegetation had evolved, it was bacteria that produced oxygen.
I don't know what kind of school you attend, but I was taught "the beginning of life" in biology-class when I was 15 years old. (Your profile, verlch doesn't say anything about your age...)
quote:
Speaking back to the flood story, look the earth is 70% water right now.
The Earth SURFACE is 70% COVERED with water. Not "the earth". There's a significant difference (a third dimension).
quote:
(were did water come from?)
Comets brought it here from space. Most of it within the first couple of hundred million years since the solar system formed.
quote:
(I suppose it just came into being magically and without cause)
Since you believe God created it on Earth, this is your supposition. The scientifically inclined of us have a rather well-founded opinion where water comes from, and what made it: Oxygen atoms from an exploding star mixed with a hydrogen cloud.
Now, a science-quiz for you: What is chemical formula of water?
quote:
How is it unfeasible that God couldn't have made it rain that much and then leave the water in the ocean.
Because that huge amount of water in so short a time would have smashed any- and every-thing to smithereens.
quote:
The have found wood high on Mt. Ararat, along with satillite images of a ship buried in the snow! I suppose that when Noahs Ark is found you will dismiss it as a fairy tale.
You got it backward. It is UNTIL we actually find Noah's Ark that we will dismiss it as a fairy tale.
quote:
God says the 'rainbow' was put in the sky as a symboy between man and God that He would never again destroy the earth with water. I'm sure you guys know the scientific formula and explation as to why rainbows exist.
Yup. Where do you want start?
c=speed of light
f=frequency
D=wavelength
t=time
c=D*f and f=1/t
The laws of refraction:
(c/v1)*sin(a)=(c/v2)*sin(b)
v1 is the speed of light in the first medium
v2 is the speed of light in the second medium
a is the angle offset from perpendicular to the surface of the incoming light, b is the resulting offset angle.
This does of course not take into account chromatic aberration. Perhaps someone else could explain exactly where/why that happens. Is the speed of light (in water/glass/thicker medium) different depending on the energy-level of the photon? I only have basic knowledge of optics.
Verlch, there are more where that came from, perhaps we could make a science quiz for you, so we could get a general idea of the level of your science education. I mean, you have mixed mind-stunningly ignorant statements with such insightful comments like "bugs in the soil" which, I must confess, surprised me (in a very positive way).
Bugs in the soil do indeed have an important role to play in the echo system.
quote:
Noah's Ark Found? Turkey Expedition Planned for Summer
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0427_040427_noahsark.html
Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News
April 27, 2004
The picture on National Geographic's site could be just about anything... If McGivern had extraordinary photos, why didn't he submit them to NG?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/08/2004 18:58:04 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 19:32:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Your not the first to mock my spelling. How about I email my posts to you, you run spell check or you just simply put spell check on this program. Ok Dr. Spelling Bee...
When you are typing a post, above the text input-field there is a row of buttons. The button to the right, marked "ABC", to the right of the button with a little Bible on it, have you tried it? It's the spell-checking button, and it could be quite handy. It doesn't cover all words, but enough...
quote:
The mustard seed is something scientists cannot duplicate how it goes from seed to life. How it goes from seed to living plant A simple mustard seed stumps the most learned men of this world.
I rather doubt that. There are several reasons why scientists wouldn't bother researching it. Mustard seed is like any other plant with small seeds, only mustard seeds are a bit smaller than most. I must confess I don't know much about mustard other than the right kind of mix goes really well on cheese sandwich.
quote:
Don't you have some patients to prescribe meds to Dr. How about we call you Dr. Med. Only because of your marriage to the drug makers. Human veins flow with meds from your pen Doc. Assuming of course you are a Dr. I'm guessing you aren't.
That's quite an observation on your part. You're right, I'm not an MD. If you click on my name in the forum, you'll display my Profile. Lot's of interesting things can be found there, among other things: my real occupation.
If you had searched "Dr. Mabuse" on Google, you'd have known that Dr. Mabuse is a character from an old black-and-white movie.
Edited to add: Beware, Verlch. The Mabuse-movies are really BAD. Evil stuff. Just reading about those movies puts your immortal soul at Great Peril. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/08/2004 19:41:46 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 19:55:09 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
The bible says when we sinned we 'knew' that we were naked. And we clothed ourselves, and we still cloth ourselves in this time and Era of extreme Darwinism. I'm sure you can explain that away. The fact that God made us the best creatures on the planet, and the fact we are still the only clothed creatures on the planet, supports the biblical story.
Not all of us are clothed. There are plenty of cultures who consider clothing to be decoration, living where clothes aren't needed for protection from the elements. The fact is that there are plenty of people in Western societies who would gladly go without clothing in the summer if there weren't a bunch of puritanical laws on the books which define nakedness as "obscene." All those people fail to support the Biblical story, even though a good percentage of them believe in the Bible and in God.
Also, I'd like you to cite chapter and verse from the Bible in support of your opinion that human beings are "the best creatures on the planet." I don't remember that at all. And it is, in fact, an opinion, and not a fact. Once you understand the difference between the two, this discussion might go somewhere.quote:
Your not the first to mock my spelling.
Dr. Mabuse didn't mock your spelling, he told you that for him, English is a second language and if you want to get your ideas across to him, you'll need to write more clearly than you have been. And a spelling-checker won't catch grammatical mistakes like using "your" when you should have used "you're" (a mistake you made above).
Besides which, why should anybody else have to work to understand you? If you want your ideas to be understood, you should work to make them easy to read. If you keep making other people do your chores, they'll often quickly stop paying attention to you at all.
Dr. Mabuse wrote:quote:
c=speed of light
c represents the speed of light in a vacuum. Just a small nitpick.quote:
This does of course not take into account chromatic aberration. Perhaps someone else could explain exactly where/why that happens. Is the speed of light (in water/glass/thicker medium) different depending on the energy-level of the photon? I only have basic knowledge of optics.
Yeah, the index of refraction for a medium varies with the wavelength of light, which is both why a prism splits light (and water droplets in the air act as prisms which make rainbows), and why chromatic aberrations exist in simple lenses (the differing refraction indices mean that red light focuses at a different distance from the lens than blue light - simples lenses are really just slightly-complex prisms).
Go ahead: ask me why the sky is blue.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 20:16:32 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
The mustard seed is something scientists cannot duplicate how it goes from seed to life. How it goes from seed to living plant A simple mustard seed stumps the most learned men of this world.
Scientists cannot duplicate a whole lot of things, but that doesn't mean that they cannot explain those things. We can't "duplicate" gravity, but we can explain it well enough to launch satellites and send people to the Moon. And the "learned men" of just 500 years ago couldn't "duplicate" electricity, but you're using it today to write posts on this message board, so don't assume that because something can't be done today it means that nobody will ever be able to do it. Such an attitude is less than humble.
And despite the implication in your post, a seed is alive. Dead seeds (like, say, roasted peanuts) don't grow into plants of any sort, ever.
Oh, and mustard seeds are far from "simple." Wild mustard may only have five chromosomes, but just two of them contain over 8,000 genes, and the long arm of chromosome 2 has over 16 million DNA base pairs. There are only 6 million parts in an entire 747, and 3.2 million letters in the King James Bible. If mustard is "simple," Biblical scholars are all vastly overpaid. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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